Bosch Fawstin awarded best Muhammad drawing award before shooting

Comments ²⁹

1. Dave Stephens

   Typo

   Infadel

   Fascinating story. Should someone talk to Garry Trudeau and tell him that a former Muslim is “Punching Down?”
   Will Trudeau give him a pass?
   Or will he chastise him for being cruelly INSENSITIVE to Muslims?

   Hmmmm….. It’s a mystery…

2. Mike Peterson

   Should have done a little sleuthing to find out who Pam Geller is.

   This is like having David Duke conduct a seminar on how to prevent urban riots.

3. Terry LaBan

   Should have done a little sleuthing to find out who Bosch Fawstin is. This guy claims to be an “ex-Muslim” but never says what that means. Was he from a Muslim family? Did he convert for 20 minutes in college? Is it true at all? The screed linked to here appears on a far-right website and contains nothing that shows any familiarity with Islam beyond the usual foam-at-the-mouth hysteria you hear from people who seriously think Obama is just itching to suspend the Constitution and impose Sharia law. It’s worse, actually–Fawstin essentially urges his readers to attack ALL practicing Muslims in the name of self-defense. I’m sure this guy knows exactly who Pam Geller is; he’s probably part of her personal militia. These are the people Trudeau’s comments really apply to. Just past the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Dachau, I can only hope their influence never grows beyond a small group of hateful nut-cases.

4. Dave Stephens

   Does “Hate Group” include religions that hate former members to the point of desiring their DEATH?

   What about religions that hate ALL imagery, ALL sculpture, ALL art, ALL photography?

   If you think these are minority viewpoints of Muslims, you would be mistaken.

   But yeah, all religions are pretty much the same. Sure. And all beliefs are equal. Like Democracy or Communism or a Dictatorship. Right? Hmmmmm….. Wait a minute….

5. Mark Juhl

   It’s amazing,two guys come to an event to kill people and the only thing people want to talk about is how controversial the people at the event are and not about the psychos there to kill people.

6. Keith Brown

   I am SO glad that I choose not to participate in religion. Any religion.

7. Charles Schumer

   Great site. I found it googling Fawstin. Please check Scamster.org if you’re interested in sharing your talents on our website as a cartoonist or artist. We are happy to showcase unique talents and to serve as a platform of commercializing political art for the funding of talent and to fund measures to uphold the American Constitution.

8. Carl Moore

   “…These are the people Trudeau?s comments really apply to. Just past the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Dachau, I can only hope their influence never grows beyond a small group of hateful nut-cases.”

   Who are the nut-cases in this incident in Texas? And who are the nut-cases in the Charlie Hebdo murders? Who is more likely to promote a 2015 version of Dachau – Islamic fundamentalists or the organizers of this Draw Muhammad contest? If you say the organizers of the Draw Muhammad contest, you’re not thinking straight.

   .

9. Dave Stephens

   In his MODERATE Muslim upbringing, Bosch mentions an appreciation for Hitler in his Muslim family, misogyny, women being regularly beaten and hatred for Jews…

   Sounds like organizers of the Draw Muhammad Contest are WAY behind in the race to promote a 2015 version of Dachau….

   By no means do I believe that all Muslims are like his family. But when American and British Muslims are polled on their beliefs, it is ASTONISHING how many unabashedly extreme views they hold – these are the MODERATE Muslims, mind you, enjoying freedom in wealthy countries denied to them in their former homes… Research for yourselves. See what the moderates actually believe…

10. Mike Peterson

    Yes, Dave, and if you poll those guys on the corner, you’ll find that the majority of black Americans believe in selling crack and joining gangs. And if you interview Mr. Goldstein and his wife at the pawn shop, you’ll find that, in fact, ALL Jews are pawnbrokers.

    And if you do a little more research, you’ll find that your duodenum is pink, but you have to remember to put on a headlamp before you begin your studies.

11. Terry LaBan

    Of course, if a group of people want to gather and award a large sum of money to the cartoon that most effectively expresses their hatred of Islam and Muslims, they have every right under our Constitution to do so without fear of violent attack. And there is no justification for said attack under any moral system I sympathize with.
    That being said, if the Ku Klux Klan were attacked while holding a nationally-publicized contest to award 10 grand to the most racist cartoonist, I suspect the tone of the response would be quite different. That attack wouldn’t be any more justified–but everyone would at least understand that the Ku Klux Klan is an odious and evil organization. Just like the American Freedom Defense Initiative
    Sorry, Dave Stephens, but all Muslims, aside how you, who I suspect are hardly an expert on the topic, want to characterize their beliefs, are not defacto members of a billion-some member hate group. Saying they are and calling for attacks on them, merely for BEING Muslim, as supposedly ex-Muslim Mr. Fawstin does, is hate speech. The notion that members of a particular minority represents, by their very nature, such an irredeemable threat to the larger society that the only recourse is to drive them out or kill them has become depressingly familiar over the past 100 years or so. If you want to endorse that sort of thinking, well hey, it’s free country.

12. Terry LaBan

    Oh, and Carl Moore–I’m not defending Islamic “Fundamentalists”. I’m defending the vast majority of law-abiding Muslim citizens who want nothing to do with them. The fact that you see no difference is what’s scary. Yeah, ISIS is bad. But Bosch Fawstin and his parent organization have declared “war” on Muslims as a class. Personally, I’m far less afraid ISIS will take over America than that right-wing nut jobs will. I mean, they’re already talking about using empty Walmarts in Texas as concentration camps.

13. Dave Stephens

    Mike, these were HUGE polls. Representing most, not a few. So please try to see past your own duodenum…

14. Carl Moore

    Rich Lowery of National Review hit it on the those with these comments:

    “…Yes, there is such a thing as self-restraint and consideration of the sensibilities of others, but it shouldn?t be the self-restraint of fear. Pamela Geller is a bomb-thrower, but only a metaphorical, not a literal, one. That?s the difference between her and her enemies ? and between civilization and barbarism.”

    Sharia law is in the Koran. Sharia, which ALL Muslims subscribe to since the Koran in the eyes of all Muslims is literally the word of Allah, calls for the death of those who draw images of Mohammad; ALL Muslims, not just immoderate ones. Those who say Islam is incompatible with American values of free speech are speaking the truth. Our problem – all of the West’s problem – is with Islam itself, not just the radicals.

15. Keith Brown

    Actually Carl, as I see it the problem is really with all religions. While one, at this point in history, seems to be more violent than others they all practice the willful suspension of logic and reason
    and that is a dangerous combination in my book.

16. Dave Stephens

    They polled some moderate American Muslims. They found extremism, strangely enough… I doubt that even the Westboro Baptist Church folks would care if Christianity was criticized… Even those maniacs understand the importance of Free Speech…

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/09/11/trending-poll-reveals-alarming-responses-from-us-muslims-on-free-speech-shariah-law-144496

    A 2012 poll found that the majority of U.S. Muslims have a fundamental problem with the freedom of speech.

    The data, collected in October 2012 and analyzed by the public-opinion research firm of Wenzel Strategies, found that 58 percent of Muslims believe criticism of Islam or the prophet Muhammad should be punished as a crime, even under the death penalty…

    Pollster Fritz Wenzel was taken aback by the results.?Almost half of those Muslims surveyed ? an astonishing 46 percent ? said they believe those Americans who offer criticism or parodies of Islam should face criminal charges,? Wenzel said in the survey analysis.

17. Mike Peterson

    I don’t think you’re being dishonest, Dave.

    I think you’re being suckered. Unfortunately, you’re being suckered into believing hateful lies.

    Here’s your “pollster,” and the ridiculous, paranoid, lunatic-fringe site that published his results should have been a clue, but, again, believing one-sided nonsense is not a sign of dishonesty if you really believe it.

    http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2010/wenzel.html

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/01/joseph-farah-curtail-muslim-immigration/

    Specific to the push-poll in question:
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/12/11/farahs-dishonest-handling-of-polling-data/

    And in comparison to Pew:
    http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/

    Dave, Carl, this took me all of 10 minutes on Google. It’s not dishonest to fail to verify things, but it’s not hard to check things out, and it is smart to do so.

18. Terry LaBan

    Carl Moore, now a bona fide Islamic scholar, is ready to wage holy war on all Muslims, everywhere. Dave Stephens cites polls proving Muslims have a “fundamental problem with free speech”, even though I’ve heard of many similar polls of Evangelic Christians–and just regular Americans– that find them similarly eager to embrace various extra-Constitutional values. So, here’s a question: I lived in a Chicago neighborhood heavily populated by Muslims, mostly from Pakistan, for 7 years. It also had a large and very visible population of Orthodox Jews. There was a huge mosque right down my street that was crowded every Friday. Never in that time did I personally feel threatened by any of the Muslims I passed by or dealt with every day, nor did I ever hear of any incidents between neighborhood Muslims and Orthodox Jews, save for a couple of minor ones around the time the 2nd Intifada broke out in Israel. I’m not claiming everyone was the best of friends. If you’d polled them, they’d have disagreed an many-even most- fundamental issues. But are you, Carl and Dave, seriously saying that all those Muslims who lived in my community were secretly my sworn enemies, ticking time bombs poised at any time to attack their non-Muslim neighbors, as instructed by the Koran? Are you? Because, if so, you scare me. And I’d feel a lot safer living next door to that mosque than in a neighborhood full of people who think like you.

19. Dave Stephens

    Can you dismiss PEW?

    Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

20. Mike Peterson

    Did the moderate American Muslims travel to Britain, France, Germany and Spain for that? And how were they able to become younger (I’d like to try that myself!)

    When they went to those countries to take the poll, did they take the goal posts with them? If not, who was in charge of moving them?

21. Carl Moore

    “… But are you, Carl and Dave, seriously saying that all those Muslims who lived in my community were secretly my sworn enemies, ticking time bombs poised at any time to attack their non-Muslim neighbors, as instructed by the Koran?…”

    C’mon, Terry, how do you get to “ticking time bombs” and “sworn enemies” from the observation that Muslims revere a book, the Koran, that tells them to kill those who mock or draw images of Muhammad? That most Muslims choose to ignore these absurd aspects of the Koran speaks to the practicality and good sense and peaceful nature of most Muslims; just as most Christians ignore some of the more absurd aspects of Christianity. But Muslims do believe that the Koran is not just a book, but the word of God spoken through Muhammad. It is not difficult to see why some percentage of Muslims – what is it, ten percent (150 million)? 20 percent (300 million?) – act on those words and take them seriously. That Islam is incompatible with Western values is really not controversial, is it? Or is it?

    I think it’s interesting that we don’t hear a loud cry from the moderates denouncing these aspects of the Koran and demanding the end to these ridiculous (from our perspective) killings of people who are simply participating in political debate. We haven’t seen this kind of nuttiness since the Nazis. It’s comforting for us to believe these violent people are not real Muslims. But, they are, and the moderates know it, which is why the moderates’ outcries against these crazy killings is so muffled.

22. Mike Peterson

    Read the Old Testament. There are militant atheists and obnoxious rationalists everywhere who gleefully pull out the more ridiculous “laws” from that book and flaunt them in the faces of Christians, just as you pull the most violent, outdated rules from the Koran to flaunt in the faces of Muslims.

    Yes, mainstream Christian women get their fathers drunk in order to have sex with them and get pregnant. It’s in the Bible!

    And they commit genocide, they keep slaves, they send their women away during their periods and they never, ever wear blended fabrics.

    Read the part about bearing false witness, too. (That one is ignored about as regularly as the others.)

    Sigh. I miss the old days, when bigots were honest enough to simply burn crosses and chant their hatred instead of trying to dress it up with “intelligent” rationalizations. I blame David Duke.

23. Terry LaBan

    ” I think it?s interesting that we don?t hear a loud cry from the moderates denouncing these aspects of the Koran and demanding the end to these ridiculous (from our perspective) killings of people who are simply participating in political debate.”

    What are you freaking TALKING about, Carl?! The people who kill in the name of Islam are denounced every day, by both Muslims and non-Muslims! You didn
    ‘t actually answer my question (though the context suggests the answer is “yes”), but it’s you and Pam Geller who say all Muslims are ticking time bombs–not me. The truth is, the vast majority of observant Muslims who are peaceful, ordinary people aren’t “ignoring” the passages of the Koran you find so alarming–they’re interpreting them in a different way. Because that’s what the 3 big monotheisms do with their ancient scriptures, and always have. I know that’s kind of a subtle point, and even if I went on to illustrate it with the 1000 years of history that back it up, I doubt you’d concede. But whatever– haters gonna hate.

24. Carl Moore

    “…ordinary people aren?t ?ignoring? the passages of the Koran you find so alarming?they?re interpreting them in a different way…”

    How does one interpret in a different way the call for the death of apostates, the death of homosexuals, the stoning of adulterers, the death of those who make images of Muhammad, the second-class status of women, etc.?

    These are not small issues. They are large issues; so large they can’t be dismissed as unimportant or too trivial. Why intelligent, highly-educated people rationalize away these ridiculous aspects of Islam and strain with great effort to draw moral equivalencies with Christianity and Judaism is a testament to the power of wishful thinking.

25. Terry LaBan

    Carl, I know nuance isn’t your strong suit, but let me try to explain this to you through an example of a religion I do know something about, Judaism. In Deuteronomy 21:18-1, parents are instructed to have their disobedient sons executed by stoning. This passage is frequently used as an example of how ridiculous and archaic Biblical law is. But for observant Jews, this law, like all other laws in the Torah, is still in force. However, one never hears of even extremely observant Jews stoning their children. In fact, Jewish tradition insists that this law has NEVER actually been carried out, even though the words seem clear and unambiguous. How can this be?
    The answer is not that the law is simply ignored–that would be heresy. Instead, a body of interpretation has grown up around it that makes the conditions for imposing it so hard to meet as to make the act impossible. Now, this may have been done out of a desire to in effect void the law or merely to make sure that before having to do such a terrible thing, parents should be sure beyond any reasonable doubt it’s unavoidable. The point is, legal texts–all legal texts–are subject to interpretation. And Islam is not different. Google “jihad” some time and you’ll see that mainstream Islam interprets the concept in ways that make it entirely consistent with civil society.
    The thing is, it’s still conceivable that a group, based in Judaism or otherwise, COULD start stoning their kids to death and claim they’re fulfilling the Scripture. And then people like you could say that ALL Jews (and Christians, I guess) are in fact potential child murderers because it’s commanded in their sacred texts, and demand that all their kids be taken away and placed in foster care. Not that I want to give you any ideas. In any case, if you want to start comparing “ridiculous aspects”, I think the 3 monotheisms are going to come out pretty close.

26. Dave Stephens

    What if 10% of observant Jews decided to start stoning their own and EVERYONE ELSE’S children?

    What about 20%?

    What about 50%?

    Which percentage point would make you admit that religions ARE different, that some religions might be a LOT more rough around the edges, and those rough edges might create massive problems that spill over more than other religions?

27. Carl Moore

    Terry, I know you’re finding it difficult to face reality here. Let me help you.

    Whether Jews are re-interpreting the Torah or ignoring it, I don’t see any Jews stoning their disobedient children out there (If there are some, please let me know about it. It would be a revelation). Whether most Muslims are re-interpreting the Koran or ignoring it, I see an awful lot of them killing innocent people in obedience to the Koran. Can you see the reality here? One religious community says to itself and to the world, “Live and let live,” and kills no one. The other religious community has a significant number of adherents (let’s be conservative and say it’s 5% or 75 million people) who can’t say to themselves or to the world, “Live and let live.” No, they have to kill people who violate Koranic scripture. Not only that, some 60% of the so-called moderates who abhor such violence, nevertheless, agree that drawing images of Muhammad should be outlawed, apostates should be punished, and gay people should be shunned and stigmatized. Are you seeing the reality here, Terry? Judaism is not a threat to Western values. Islam is clearly a threat to Western values. Saying that is simply stating the truth. Drawing a moral equivalency between Islam and Judaism/Christianity is false. No amount of rationalizing and wishful thinking will make it otherwise.

28. Mike Peterson

    Give it up, Terry. Standing up to bigots is important, but so is recognizing futility.

    Proverbs 27/22: Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding them like grain with a pestle, you will not remove their folly from them.

    Or, as the young folks say, Haters gonna hate.

29. Mike Lester

    This is too good to be true: that’s two grown men Mr. Peterson and Mr. Laban in two separate posts defending their sympathetic positions for homicidal islamic terrorists w/ the same Taylor Swift lyric. BRILLIANT!!!