And I assume you know this, but Downfall became the basis of endless YouTube “Hitler finds out…” parodies. My fave is “Hitler Finds Out Michael Jackson is Dead.”

Like Tony Soprano, I’m a sucker for anything that begins: “And then, on September 1st, 1939…”

But even when I get on a marathon rant, mercilessly beating all those poor little letters on the keyboard, it’s only because I enjoy the give and take between sharp minds.

I have to admit you keep me on my toes…I figure popping off with some off hand remark is a sure fire way to get hockey checked around here.

It’s almost like turning in a research paper in high school on a book you really didn’t read…you think you’ve bullsnarked your way through, but in the back of your mind your thinking “Ah, man I shouldn’t have done that! I’m gonna get burned down!”

So props for keeping us trolls on the right on our toes – I know if I show up with a dull sword I’m going to get the ‘Dread Pirate Roberts’ treatment.

And IMHO, there is no better subject on Earth than history, which is why I follow politics (and the inseparable cause and effect relationship it shares with history).

I think I was in 5th grade when I first read (or tried to read) William Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” – I sure didn’t get it all and had to read it again several times over the years, but every time I read it I felt “this is an amazing story, why isn’t everyone jazzed about stuff like this?”

I guess it’s just preference, but golems and rings and talking trees seemed rather silly to me back then when stories of Earth moving events were there and were REAL.

I never read the Bullock or Paxton books, but I will in fact check them out. Two amazing books that I recommend highly (both WWII) if you’re into the nuts & bolts of big historical turning points are:

‘Downfall: The End of the Japanese Empire’ by Richard B. Frank

‘On Borrowed Time: How World War II Began’ by Leonard Mosley

The first details (rather disturbingly and graphically) the effects of the March fire bombings over Tokyo and how they played into the dropping of the nuclear warheads on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It outlines the rationale behind why these courses were chosen in a fairly non-biased manner (or at least I thought so). Not an easy book to read in places (it can sound a bit ‘military manual’ here and there) and the author in the end does support the atomic decision based on his interpretation of historical information available, but even if you disagree with him the book makes the horror and fear for both sides come alive while handling each interest with respect.

The latter work is a great blow by blow of international politics on how Hitler cajoled, manipulated, bullied and bluffed the allies up until Sept. 2, 1939. It’s portrayal of politicians and bureaucrats fiddling around worrying narcissistically about trifling issues while the world lurches towards war is incredibly maddening and almost makes the reader as mad at Chamberlain, Petain, Benes, et al., as they are likely to be at Hitler. And in light of today’s world, it confirms that humans, politics and governments seldom change.

I’d hope you find both books worthwhile.

And keep your sword sharp! ;)

People will differ about his politics, but for my money Fisk’s “The Great War of Civilisations” is a magnificent tour de force, a magnus opus of historical and political analysis the likes of which comes along perhaps once a decade. It stands alongside Alan Bullock’s “Hitler and Stalin” and Shirer’s “Rise and Fall,” even with Paxton’s “Anatomy of Fascism” as epic and majesterial. If you’re into history, check it out.

I can’t speak for you, Shane, but I am always open to changing my mind. When it happens, when I abandon some long-held belief because it’s proven wrong, I find it thrilling. Aside from that, these back-and-forths help one test out one’s arguments.

Most of the time, when I disagree with someone politically, they don’t know jack about politics and history. So those arguments don’t rise to the level of real debate, and are boring.

What I find interesting about debating you, Shane, is that you are clearly knowledgeable about history and politics, yet have arrived at very different conclusions about how things are and how they should be than I have. I’m like, how can that be? And yet, there it is. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

It would sound to crass to do, but it would save time to just type “FISK YOU!!” and “NO! FISK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON!!”

It would save the lives of countless alpha characters, a few keyboards and would probably have as much of a chance changing someone’s mind as what we’re doing now.

So, consdier yourself ‘fisked’ again.

No one on the Right thinks that Ted Rall should be quarantined.

Mostly, we think Ted Rall is inarticulate, politically unsophisticated, naive, and easy prey for baseless rants by left-wing demagogues.

We don’t think he should be silenced. We are merely pointing out the rather obvious fact that Ted Rall appears to be very stupid.

The number of soldiers that brutalized or sodomized anyone is an even smaller number than the total number of men and women in our Armed Forces. You can’t say ‘don’t indict all Muslims on what a few do’ but then do that exact same thing to the American military.

I’m indicting American society, which repeatedly brags that it “supports the troops”–who are, after all, the ones committing these numerous heinous crimes. Under the doctrine of collective guilt that we, the US, initiated in 1945, all Americans are guilty of Bagram, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Diego Garcia, etc.

“it is important to note that *we* started the Great Clash of Civilizations (hat tip, Robert Fisk) between the West and Islam.”

And considering Islam’s violent past (Mohammed was a warrior, you know – that means he killed people regularly) you seem to be picking and choosing who is a victim and who is the aggressor.

I’m actually more concerned about America’s violent present. First, because I am an American and one should clean up his own house before pointing fingers at others. Second, because the present can be stopped.

And hat tip to a pacifist all you want but how is submitting to a violent aggressor that wants to slit our throats going to help?

Who mentioned submitting to anyone? This is a fully invented talking point the Right always trots out but is baseless. Actually, it’s the Republicans who submit to radical Islam: they fund the House of Saud and thus Wahhabiism. Also, the Right doesn’t believe in defending America. That’s why, when attacked by Pakistan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia on 9/11, it attacked Afghanistan and Iraq instead.

If you are referring to Israel bulldozing Palestinian houses I’d say that’s a heck of lot more humane that flying jet airliners into buildings, blowing up discos and schools or decapitating folks to protect your interests. Sure, Israel used Caterpillar D-9 to destroy houses, but only radical Islam used 747’s to destroy two of the world’s largest skyscrapers AND nearly 3000 innocents.

Shane, if you’re arguing that we’re better than “them,” talking about how similar we are to them isn’t really a good talking point.

As for supporting dictators, because I’m not an editorial cartoonist I don’t have all the details or the ability to judge without question why at certain times we support ugly regimes – except maybe sometimes it might be necessary.

Necessary, my ass.

Sure, we even used certain ratty Central American or South American banana republic wackos in the past to check Communism from taking root in our neighborhood – and I’m glad we did. It sucks, but its reality sometimes that we have to pick the lesser of two evils. Kind of like voting.

Um, the problem is, laissez faire capitalism wasn’t the lesser of two evils when compared to communism. Which, by the way, wasn’t going to take over the US anyway. The Cold War was one of the greatest wastes of lives and treasure in human history.

Not sure what you’re saying, except it seems you are equivocating…do you mean that American’s watching our military strike Saddam’s regime on TV is the same to you as hundreds of thousands of Arabs dancing in the street to American’s murdered by airliner?

No. It’s worse.

Those Palestinians had plenty of reason to hate Americans. When Israeli helicopter gunships shoot their children willy-nilly, the bullets that kill them are made in the US and paid for by US taxpayers.

Saddam Hussein never attacked, or even threatened to attack, or could have attacked, the US. Americans should have taken to the streets and overthrown the US government for committing the worst possible war crime: unprovoked aggressive war against a defenseless nation.

I have to disagree. We already ran that dog down about whether the Iraq invasion was necessary and I don’t want to go over it again. But it is sufficient to say I disagree. No American I’ve ever seen cheers at mass death. Why do you think so many are STILL queasy over dropping atomic weapons on Japan? Because we traditionally honor all human life, its part of our culture and it’s horrific to see it wiped out, even if it is the enemy.

Where do *you* live? In the US where I live, not even liberals care about the deaths of Afghans or Iraqis, and rarely if ever even write a letter to the editor about them, much less protest. We don’t give a rat’s ass about the lives of foreigners.

That was Bush’s point – you can’t use diplomacy on extreme radical folks whose only desire is to see you dead and they are highly motivated and willing to kill themselves to get it done.

You can’t launch preemptive attacks based on theoretical suppositions. By that logic, the next time you go to a bar you should shoot everyone there as you walk in. That way you can really be sure that none of them attack you. Neither Bush nor anyone else can know what foreign leaders intend to do or not do, and they shouldn’t pretend to be clairvoyant.

It’s funny. The left claims radical Muslims who have already killed thousands are simply acting out of anger, are misunderstood and we only need to dialog with them for peace to be achieved. But then they say conservative ‘tea party’ Americans are radicals that are irredeemable and must be silenced, minimized and ignored because they have no useful role in our politics and have shown *potential* for being harmful, which justifies a social quarantine of them. Terrorists trying to kill us can be reasoned with and won over but fellow Americans with whom there are political disagreements cannot be tolerated.

No one on the Left thinks that Tea Partiers should be quarantined. Mostly, we think Tea Partiers are inarticulate, politically unsophisticated, naive, and easy prey for baseless rants by right-wing demagogues. We don’t think they should be silenced. We are merely pointing out the rather obvious fact that a great many of them appear to be very stupid.

If a great many radical Muslim Imams are preaching KILL KILL KILL, that is a bad thing happening NOW. Their prophet was a professional killer, a holy warrior, so of course the radical Muslim Imams take advantage of that. They can preach, “KILL KILL KILL like our PROPHET MOHAMMED!!”

Christians cannot preach, “KILL KILL KILL!!” and use Jesus, the Prince of Peace. Instead they must awkwardly quote from the Old Testament, mostly, and frankly, worldwide, Christianity does not NOW have a movement like the Muslims have. Christianity has problems, but nothing of the magnitude of the radical divisions of Islam. Not even close.

Historically HUMANS made war for infinite reasons often in the name of religion. True. But the answer remains, which religion has, as their prophet, a warrior? That would be Islam.

The people who, clearly, don’t think Iraqis are “folk.”

“And considering Islam’s violent past (Mohammed was a warrior, you know – that means he killed people regularly) ”

Yes, if only it was a more peaceful religion like Christianity, origin of such picnics like the Spanish Politely Asking of People To Consider Jesus and King Richard’s Girl Scout Cookie Drive.

I cannot believe you guys still make these talking points and don’t feel embarrassed.