The Daily Cartoonist

“Q: What’s the last time you laughed out loud over a comic strip that another cartoonist did?

A: “It was just a few weeks ago. The strip is PVP (Player vs. Player) by Scott Kurtz. His timing is flawless. PVP isn’t in newspapers, it’s online! Some of the sharpest stuff is being done online by some very talented, young artists. They keep me looking over my shoulder.”

Dear print cartoonist-naysayers.

IN YOUR FACE!

oh boy, here we go. Let the comments begin. ;)

What an ass.

“Dear print cartoonist-naysayers.

IN YOUR FACE!”

Who, or what, are “print cartoonist naysayers”, and what exactly is supposed to be in their face?

Scott, Jim says your check bounced. He’ll have to retract what he said.

WOW! Scott got props from Davis? Way to go Scott!!!!

Scott - You certainly could be more complete in dramatics with, I BE IN YOUR FACE!, or I’M SO IN YOUR FACE! Or, in a more mature vein, HUZZAH, I DEFY YOU! or THE GAUNTLET HAS BEEN THROWN DOWN! Then there’s the standard “evil genius” laugh, BWA HA HA HA HA!! The old reliable historical standby is, TAKE THAT! Comes from the Greek πάρτε αυτού. They’d inscribe that little expression on sling stones, and hurl them at the opposing forces.

Scott,

I don’t think any of us who still want to be paid by newspapers for running our strips ever said there wasn’t great material being run online.

You guys don’t get “in your face” jokes?

You’re cartoonists. You’re supposed to have a sense of humor.

Come ONNNN!

in your face - defiantly confrontational; also an exclamation of contempt

According to the The American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms, this slangy phrase originated in sports journalism about basketball during the 1970’s as a phrase of contempt used against the opposing team and extended to other areas in the 1980s.

“In your face, mister.”

Oh, quite! yes! In ALL our faces, then!

Still an ass.

Scott, come ONNN with the gratuitous underestimating. You don’t have to spell it out…we get it. I was being facetious. You’re a cartoonist — have you grasped the concept of being “Facetious”?

Adjective

1. Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.
2. Pleasantly humorous, jocular.

FYI — Like in your first post, that started all of this, I was being “deliberately inappropriate”. But what do you expect, posting something like that? Take the heat.

Careful Chris, or he’ll send the webcomics mafia after you, too.

The webcomics mafia. That’s rich.

Come on guys. One of the big boys of traditional syndication not only reads PvP, but likes it and acknowledges the web in a positive way without any fear mongering, denial or anything like that.

It’s a good day for me. I’m gonna revel in it a bit.

Scott, I’ve been a fan of your work for a number of years. Its a great thing for Davis to use you as an example of the up-and-coming talent he keeps his eye on. I’d be over the moon if I knew Davis even looked at my work one time, and hated it. So congratulations! Revel! But your Mamma wears army boots.

Kudos to Scott for the PVP plug.

It’s a cute interview, but I’m scratching my head about the line that reads: “You’ve been drawing Garfield for 30 years now …”

I know what they mean, but doesn’t Jim … Oh, nevermind :)

“Come on guys. One of the big boys of traditional syndication not only reads PvP, but likes it and acknowledges the web in a positive way without any fear mongering, denial or anything like that.

It’s a good day for me. I’m gonna revel in it a bit.”

So be gracious and let someone else mention it, before being the first to show up at a forum that you regularly provoke, and bask in your glory like a 16 year-old who just got laid for the first time.

We all see you, Scott. We see you waving. We know you’re doing some neat things. You don’t have to keep reminding us.

“…but likes it and acknowledges the web in a positive way without any fear mongering, denial or anything like that.”

Fear mongering? Denial?
What on Earth are you talking about?

“Fear mongering? Denial?
What on Earth are you talking about?”

Do you think that there isn’t even just a smidgen of antipathy coming from print and syndicated artists, towards webcomics and webcomic creators? The monetization of the WWW in this area (or aspect) is still being figured out. PvP and it’s ilk are seen by many as a threat, potentially invading or devaluing traditional business models. In reality, webcomic phenominon like this are a part of change, and of new emerging business models, which is unavoidable. I’m not saying there hasn’t been antagonism from the other side, too. I live with my work primarily on the WWW, I’ve sensed some unease from people who have passionately, exclusively, pursued syndication, or other significant printed venues. But at the end of the day, we’re all in this together.

I don’t see the naysaying. Where is it? And why would “print” cartoonists be attacking online cartoonists when so many “print” cartoonists have websites too?

I say good for Scott Kurtz, these “heads up” messages are great boosts for one’s cartooning soul.

OK, here’s a qualifier: Does anyone really think Jim Davis follows the fortunes of internet features, no matter how good they are? Isn’t it more likely he followed the couple of arguments Scott had with print cartoonists a couple of years back? It’s those which brought Scott to the attention of print cartoonists.
And I’m sure it’s those knock down drag out fights that imprinted PVP on an old and very established print cartoonist’s synapses.

In other words, we MADE you, Kurtz!! An invoice will land on your desk shortly, make sure it’s paid, or we’ll fix it so as you’ll never work in this town again.

“Do you think that there isn’t even just a smidgen of antipathy coming from print and syndicated artists, towards webcomics and webcomic creators?”

No.

“PvP and it’s ilk are seen by many as a threat, potentially invading or devaluing traditional business models.”

That’s only when cartoonists try to give their work away to newspapers, hoping it’ll give them more exposure. And it has nothing to do with being a webcomic creator. Cartoonists hate it just as much when someone trying to break into print cartooning gives his work away.

They really should have asked Davis why he continues to berate and abuse Mondays. Is it a personal vendetta or is he just mean? Tuesdays are equally bad, but you don’t see them getting half the grief.

Garfield’s War on Mondays needs to come to an end.

“…In other words, we MADE you, Kurtz!! An invoice will land on your desk shortly, make sure it’s paid, or we’ll fix it so as you’ll never work in this town again…”

Sheesh, then what do we all owe to Gutenberg?

“I don’t see the naysaying. Where is it? And why would “print” cartoonists be attacking online cartoonists when so many “print” cartoonists have websites too?”

You end up in the “other camp” when you almost exclusively live on the http://WWW. You may have work appearing in print on a regular basis, but you are not syndicated, you don’t seek out syndication, and you don’t feel the urge to have to go out to print to validate what you are doing. Of course, you may get into print often, because you don’t care to try and go out to print, based off the WWW footprint you have built up.

““I don’t see the naysaying. Where is it? And why would “print” cartoonists be attacking online cartoonists when so many “print” cartoonists have websites too?”

You end up in the “other camp” when you almost exclusively live on the http://WWW. You may have work appearing in print on a regular basis, but you are not syndicated, you don’t seek out syndication, and you don’t feel the urge to have to go out to print to validate what you are doing. Of course, you may get into print often, because you don’t care to try and go out to print, based off the WWW footprint you have built up.”

I’m not really sure what you’re saying. That sounds like your average, every day, freelance cartoonist. Who’s picking on freelance cartoonists?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar…and sometimes a leg is a fire hydrant in disguise.

Incidentally, Chris, what’s the difference between those who seek “validation” in print and those who seek “validation” by having a well-trafficked website?

Unless a cartoonist keeps all his work to himself and never shows it to anyone, he’s looking for validation.

Can’t believe I have to spell this out.

So, in the past, I have found that some people who make their living primarily by being a print cartoonist have frequently dismissed people who make their living as online cartoonists.

These people have, in the past, insisted that Webcartoonists can’t make a living online via advertising, and selling merchandise. Some of these people have even implied that cartoonists claiming they make a living this way are lying.

If you are not one of these people, then anything I say about the subject doesn’t apply to you. Please take no offense.

If you ARE, one of these people, I would now like to point out that a very prominent figure in your industry has just not only acknowledged my work, but has also noticed the online cartooning community as something to keep your eye on.

Thus…my desire to take that comment, and hold it directly in the face of those whom have previously turned their nose up at the contributions my community has made in the field of Cartooning.

That’s pretty awesome getting a nod from Jim Davis. I’d be insufferable too. Not sure if I would have been “in your face” about it. But then again I’ve never received that kind of recognition.

In your face, Jim Davis!

“Q: You’ve been drawing Garfield for 30 years now.”

He has? I thought he outsourced that stuff.

Wow. I can’t believe some of your are dissing Davis.

How long does a guy have to draw his own strip before it’s okay for him to hire people to take over art chores and build a huge empire that benefits his family?

4 years? 10 years? When has he paid his dues?

Now that we have:
http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/

Maybe it’s a good time to introduce:
http://scottkurtzminusscottkurtz.net/

Scott, you have to be the easiest hypocrite to wind up. Suddenly Jim Davis can do no wrong because he throws you a bone.

Gimme a break.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… You people are all nuts.

“how long does a guy have to draw his own strip before it’s ok for him to hire people to take over art chores and build a huge empire that benefits his family”

Well I think that takes us back to “legacy strips”. There’e quite a crowd of folks that feel the only acceptable cartooning business model is the Charles Shulz “draw every cartoon yourself forever. Period.” model and that creating a huge outsourced empire is a bad thing. Personally, I don’t agree. I don’t feel a comic has to be solely produced by one artist in perpetuity if the feature remains popular and the general public doesn’t care. Even though the idea that only the original artist can capture the true vision of a feature is the argument most thrown out against such strips, I think that is just really camoflage for “retire and give us your space on the page already”.

“How long does a guy have to draw his own strip before it’s okay for him to hire people to take over ART CHORES and build a huge empire that benefits his family?”

(emphasis added)

Scott, in my humble opinion, a cartoonist stops being a cartoonist when they stop cartooning. For example, Walt Disney started his career as a cartoonist/animator, but ended as a very creative and talented businessman.

The question in the Davis/UPS interview would make one think that Davis draws every strip. As far as I understand, this isn’t true.

I suppose some of us don’t look at cartooning as being an ART CHORE :)

… Most cartoonists look at the business-side of cartooning as being a chore!

I do think it’s cool that Jim acknowledged PVP. I don’t have any knowledge to back my statement, but I don’t agree with Malcolm that he heard about it through some flame war. My guess is that someone on his staff pointed him to it. But that’s neither here nor there.

While I think the “in your face” comment was a bit high-schoolish, I can see Scott’s point. There have been repeated threads on many forums about how certain web cartoonists are making a living and most responses from those outside of the web cartoonist community are, “Yeah, but…”

Scott’s presented his business model. Others have adopted it. And a lot of people still say, “yeah, but…” … I can see why he might have some frustration.

Corey, you’re such a baby.

Go read any interview I’ve ever given and you’ll find a reference to Garfield at Large being what started me cartooning in the fourth grade.

Jim Davis was and is my hero. Was creatively (I think Garfield changed after the first book and I stopped being into it a long time ago), and is now as a businessman.

And I’ve stated that for YEARS. These feelings are nothing new for me.

That’s not hypocrisy.

Mike, I know someone who works at PAWS and I’ve heard what Jim does every day. If that’s a chore for him, he seems to do it with a lot of joy and a smile.

“Corey, you’re such a baby.”

How very sad.

Scott,
Your new check cleared. Jim says thanks.

>>>There have been repeated threads on many forums about how certain web cartoonists are making a living and most responses from those outside of the web cartoonist community are, “Yeah, but…”

I think the “yeah buts” are pointing out that the business model that’s being presented as new and innovative has already been put into practice by freelancers for decades.

Geez, why do I always feel like I have come in here and bust things up?

For the umpteenth time - Please, refrain from calling each other names or making derogatory statements against other participants/visitors to the blog. If you can’t talk about an issue without resorting to name calling, don’t participate.

From now on, rather than close down the thread, I will temporarily ban those who can’t follow the rules. I think that is more fair for everyone else who do want to talk about the topic at hand.

“While I think the “in your face” comment was a bit high-schoolish, I can see Scott’s point. There have been repeated threads on many forums about how certain web cartoonists are making a living and most responses from those outside of the web cartoonist community are, “Yeah, but…”

Scott’s presented his business model. Others have adopted it. And a lot of people still say, “yeah, but…” … I can see why he might have some frustration.”

I still don’t see how this is any different from print cartooning. If someone were to ask me whether PRINT cartoonists can make a living, my answer would also start with “Yeah, but…”

The cartoonists who make a living off cartooning are exceptions, whether online or in print. Why take it personally when someone points that out? I don’t take it personally when people say print is dying, and print cartooning is a dead end business that doesn’t afford people the chance to make a living (and people say that CONSTANTLY), and that most freelance cartoonists don’t have a workable strategy for making a living in print (which is true). I’m just glad I’m one of the exceptions. I don’t understand why successful online cartoonists don’t have the same mentality.

“Mike, I know someone who works at PAWS and I’ve heard what Jim does every day. If that’s a chore for him, he seems to do it with a lot of joy and a smile.”

That’s exactly my point, Scott. Like Walt Disney, Jim Davis obviously has passions/goals above and beyond being a cartoonist. If cartooning was his first priority, he’d more like Charles Schulz.

I’m not saying everyone has to be like Sparky, but the interview question implies that Davis draws the strip.

I should mention that Garfield was one of my favourite strips as a kid too. In fact, I used to watch the “Garfield and Friends” television cartoon every Saturday morning. So please understand that I’m not trying to diss YOUR hero. I still admire what Davis has done for cartooning in-general.

I meant to type “SOME successful online cartoonists…”

Mike, I can see how the interview doesn’t specify the Garfield is a one-man-at-one-drawing-table production any longer. But for the purposes of a press-release interview, I think Jim was an honest as he needed to be.

he does mention that he has art assistants further down in the interview. I’m not sure it’s as deceptive as you guys are implying. Maybe you’re not implying that.

And yeah, guys, I know I was being high-schoolish here. I’m embracing that. It’s a high-schoolish kind of thing to get pumped up about, right? The popular kid said he liked my work.

That’s one way of looking at it.

“That’s one way of looking at it.”

What’s the other way, Rick?

I dare say that if Jim Davis were my hero, I wouldn’t take a post about his huge milestone and its celebration — a post which should rightfully be full of congratulations from his fellow cartoonists who come to this website, as well as his readers — and immediately destroy the comment thread by ego-centrically throwing out as the very first response a literally in-your-face handful of muck with full knowledge that it would start a mudsling.

If that’s the way a web cartoonist publicly pays back a print guy for inspiring him — after handing him a very nice public compliment, no less! — it’s small wonder online cartoonists are viewed in this industry as the embarrassing cousins you’re afraid to invite to your gathering.

Congratulations, Mr. Davis! Sincere thanks for entertaining my children all those years.

“From now on, rather than close down the thread, I will temporarily ban those who can’t follow the rules. I think that is more fair for everyone else who do want to talk about the topic at hand.”

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Alan.

“it’s small wonder online cartoonists are viewed in this industry as the embarrassing cousins you’re afraid to invite to your gathering.”

Other than myself, I’m not sure any of your embarrassing cousins are interested in coming to any of your gatherings. I seem to be one of the only webcartoonists who still wishes that the print cartoonists that inspired him would include him in their club.

But even before one drop of mud was slung in either direction, the NCS has just refused to acknowledge the living that myself or other cartoonists are making online.

That’s why we’ve had to start our own groups, communities, and gatherings.

Whoa, break it up, Propeller-heads. I logged on to a professional cartooning site and a skateboarder fight broke out. Dude.

Ms. Douglas your are obviously an adult and worse, a buzz-kill. Brutal.

I don’t know who’s turn it is to play GuitarHero, fellas but from the first (likely misinterpreted) untoward illogical attention-grabbing bloat at 8:48a.m. until nine posts later -3:37p.m. not a whole heck of a lot of work got done.

Nice work if you can get it. Epic, Dude.

P.S. I wouldn’t walk across the street to read GARFIELD but I know success when I see it. Kudos to the man for his 30 year career.

This site has expanded to embrace all forms of cartooning and we should stand shoulder to shoulder and support all kinds of cartoonists.

Charles Schulz was a master of the craft and broke new ground in the format of the newspaper strip. The fact that he drew the strip himself up until his death is admirable, but not necessarily to be recommended to those cartoonists who want to have lives outside their work and maintain good family relationships.

We all have a lot to learn from Jim Davis, whether we enjoy the strip or not. He seems to have a balanced work ethic and has created jobs and a work environment for other cartoonists to enjoy and gain experience from. David Reddick works for Paws and is now doing the fabulous web comic, “Legend of Bill”.

The only thing that really differentiates web cartoons from print cartoons is the editorial control. The success of print cartoons is determined initially by editors (at syndicates and in newspapers), before readers get a say. Web cartoons cut out the middle man. If anyone should be concerned about that, it should be editors, not cartoonists.

“…the NCS has just refused to acknowledge the living that myself or other cartoonists are making online.”

What proof is required? If it’s cartooning income, why isn’t it acknowledged? There are a lot of NCS people who post here. Please explain.

“What proof is required? If it’s cartooning income, why isn’t it acknowledged? There are a lot of NCS people who post here. Please explain”

I’ve had several people sponsor me, but they get shot down by people in the NCS who don’t want me in the club. I’ve heard that first hand. It’s not that I don’t meet the requirements.

And for the record, guys. My initial comment was meant VERY tongue in cheek. I made similar comments to my friends in the webcomics community via text and they all got it.

This just isn’t a place where I’m very popular.

I deem this thread completely hilarious.

WOW, this is like Rosie vs. Elisabeth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xht0HcPryWA

“And for the record, guys. My initial comment was meant VERY tongue in cheek.”

Scott, I really did laugh out loud when I saw your first comment on this thread. I didn’t really take it as an attack or stirring the crap.

I think it’s cool that Jim Davis recongizes your great work. And that’s just what it is. Great work is great work no matter if it’s on the internet, in a newspaper, on the side of your brother’s shoe (Corey lol).

I sometimes poke fun at the sheer commercial exploitation of Garfield. But, as Alan once pointed out, we all WISH we could have that kind of commercial success. Congratulations to Jim Davis and many many thanks for such a great cat and such a neurotic owner!

I’m a little late to this party, but I wanted to drop my two cents. Working both sides of the fence of cartooning, I didn’t take Scott’s post as offensive, but silly and giddy, rightfully so. Good work, Scott.
And Malcolm, your question is valid, but let me just say that Jim is actually incredibly up on the webs, webcomics and the next steps in cartooning evolution all the time, as are we all. That’s how he has managed to stay successful for so long in an ever fickle and changing climate out there. He recognizes change, up-and-comers, trends, etc, and acknowledges them when they are due. And if being so successful that one no longer draws every single comic by hand, but oversees every single one, writes a large amount of it and nurtures assistants as friends and co-workers and has created a company that employs 50 people who are able to feed their families on it, raise their children on what it has brought them, encourages his own staff to pursue their own dreams and comics goals just like any cartoonist would, well, then, I’m finding it hard to see the negativity in it. While I personally prefer to do all my own comics solo, having assistants is as old as comics themselves. Think Ham Fisher who employed Al Capp, who then employed Frank Frazetta, among others, etc., etc. … and even a certain Tumbleweeds cartoonist hired a young advertising employee who wanted to work as a cartoonist, and did so for 9 years until a lil’ orange fuzzball was born.

“I made similar comments to my friends in the web comics community via text and they all got it.

This just isn’t a place where I’m very popular.”

Here we go again. Once again, (how many times has it been now?) you provoke something and then later come off acting like the innocent victim, like everybody is being mean to you because you aren’t a print cartoonist. It’s nonsense. The majority of participants here aren’t print cartoonists.

Given your consistent behavior that doesn’t include regular participation at TDC, but rather, irregular drive-bys, why shouldn’t we think that you are using/abusing this forum to gain street cred with your boys? “They don’t get it. They’re mean to me. They’re anti-Web. Buy my t-shirts and show all the has-beens and wannabes who is successful!”

I, for one, would really like to know once and for all if it’s all marketing with you, if you’re just here periodically for the attention it awards you, (online marketing is ALL about gaining attention, often via controversy, which seems to be your forte), or if you really would like to become more friendly with and more knowledgeable about the parts of the industry that are outside web cartooning.

Dawn,

No, I’m not trolling these forums for an extra 50 hits a day on my website. But I would love to see one of your uni-bomber-manifesto whiteboard videos about it.

“But I would love to see one of your uni-bomber-manifesto whiteboard videos about it.”

Okay. That was effin funny.

Regarding internet drama as a form of publicity:

1) It doesn’t work well.

2) For it to work at all, you have to pick a forum in which there is a lot of traffic, and from which your drama will spill virally into other areas.

If we assume for a moment that this particular forum is read by a five hundred people, who each post links to Scott’s work on pages read by an additional ten people each, the five thousand new pairs of eyeballs on PvP will be an unnoticed blip in the regular cyclical ups-and-downs of Scott’s website traffic.

I’m not saying that “In your face” was a wise way to open the conversation. I’m saying that for all his goofy quirks, Scott’s far too web-savvy enough to believe that picking a fight in here will garner him more readers.

Regarding Jim and Thirty Years:

CONGRATULATIONS JIM DAVIS!

You inspire me.

I celebrated eight years on June 12th, and while I think I can imagine doing this for another 22 years, there’s a big difference between imagining yourself doing something, and getting out there and doing it.

So, congratulations to Jim for dreaming big, and then living even bigger. You inspire us all.

“Scott’s far too web-savvy enough to believe that picking a fight in here will garner him more readers.”

I didn’t say a thing about garnering him more readers. It’s all about staying the anti-comic-page-hero of those readers he already has, to stay relevant and emotionally connected to them and make sure they continue to give him devoted attention. And money.

I agree that Scott is web savvy. So he obviously understands that different sites have their own personalities, yet he constantly acts here like he’s complete ignorant of that fact.

So what IS this game he keeps playing here, if it’s not talking to his own readers?

And if you don’t like my videos, Scott, why did you subscribe to my channel?

>>>“…the NCS has just refused to acknowledge the living that myself or other cartoonists are making online.”

What proof is required? If it’s cartooning income, why isn’t it acknowledged? There are a lot of NCS people who post here. Please explain.

There are several criteria one must meet to be accepted into the NCS.

From the NCS bylaws:

Eligibility for Regular NCS Membership:
Cartoonists who are currently earning the major part of their income from cartooning and have done so for at least the past three years;
Work must be of a high professional quality and their reputation good.

I suspect that a fraternal organization like the NCS would be hesitant to accept an individual, regardless of his professional status, who consistently and publicly besmirches the work of fellow cartoonists, many of whom are NCS members.

Reputation is quite often the deal breaker in such cases.

Rick,

Think of all the people in your organization who are cantankerous bastards on purpose and then tell me again why I’m too much of a rascal to be in your club.

How many of my sponsors have you played Grima Wormtongue to?

Reputation indeed.

Dawn,

I subscribed to your videos because they make me laugh and I am dying to see the next one. I want to learn more about these triangles.

Too late, Scott. Those were all up three months ago, but I had to take the last ones down recently when investors expressed concern that I’m too open with my ideas.

Regarding reputation among peers, this is an inherent problem with current models for making a living online. As I said in this post http://tinyurl.com/64swk6 :

Bloggers, video producers, animators, writers, cartoonists… if you want to play in this game as it currently exists, you’d better get a taste for eating your own. Unfortunately, this is the zero sum war with which the “free” Web economy has left us. Bon appetite.

Dawn,

My reputation among my peers is just fine. My reputation amongst the comic book community is aces. My reputation with my fan-base is also really great.

These are all circles of mine where everyone involved is aware of both my good and bad sides.

I would really LOVE to have you on our podcast to talk to you about your fight against free. How can I set that up?

These petty little forums make me so proud of my chosen profession. The next time someone asks my why I don’t have more cartoonist friends, I’m going to link them to this little gem.

What a bunch of bitchy little cry-asses who can’t take an ounce of criticism without flipping the Monopoly board over and crying “no fair”.

Life sucks. Get a f***in’ helmet.

Corey,

I doubt anyone’s actual life outside of this comment thread is as petty and bitchy as it makes everyone sound.

I have a LOT of cartoonist friends and I would highly suggest you find some. It makes doing this so much better.

Sorry, Scott, I can’t do that now, but I’ll be happy to later down the road.

A national magazine is supposedly going to print a story they wrote about me some time ago before too much longer, so everyone will learn more then.

But right now, I’m working towards getting a lot of money and am making great progress. As I’ve said, they don’t want me to be so public, so there are very few questions I could answer to anybody’s satisfaction. I don’t want to sit there and just keep saying, “Sorry, I can’t answer that” when you ask me what we’re doing to combat the culture of free.

Anybody who wants to know my feelings about free can find them at my website and lots of other places around the blogosphere.

And as for your response, good for your circles for getting to see your “good side.” Those of us from Toontalk and The Daily Cartoonist, which includes many in the NCS, can hardly be blamed for not knowing that part of you. We react to what we see. If you’re so online savvy, you should know that you can’t act like you do with your best buds everywhere else on the Web.

Crashing other people’s communities with consistently rude behavior and blaming them for the negative reaction you get is either disingenuous (a marketing stunt to shore up your base) or just plain social ineptitude.

≥≥≥Think of all the people in your organization who are cantankerous bastards on purpose and then tell me again why I’m too much of a rascal to be in your club.

The NCS has it’s fair share of “rascals”. They just don’t go on public cartoonists bulletin boards and denigrate other people’s work calling them hacks, has beens and dinosaurs. That sort of thing doesn’t sit well within a fraternal organization.

>>>How many of my sponsors have you played Grima Wormtongue to?

I’ve had no membership committee duties for NCS for several years now and have not been privvy to any applications in that time.

You assume that since I’ve challenged you here on this board in the past that I have taken a personal interest in keeping you out of NCS?.

Cartoonists tend to read cartoonists bulletin boards.Some of them are NCS officers that review applications for membership. Perhaps your well established pattern of trashing print cartoonists on this and other forums had something to do with why your application wasn’t accepted. Sometimes it’s wise to reflect on our own actions and take accountability for it instead of blaming others.

When posting to any forum, I try and follow the rule that I won’t post anything I wouldn’t be comfortable saying to someone facet-to-face. This rule may be a “no brainer” to the more experienced posters…and when I’m being snarky, I try to be freindly snarky. But even that can be overplayed, or plain misunderstood, and then you become noise. This has been an interesting thread. It shows how passionate we are about cartoons & cartooning. Also, it shows to me how huge technological change is scary. I feel, ultimately, that through change, there will be bigger audiences for all types of cartoons, print will not die, and there will be lucrative (proven!) new business models for creators to take advantage of. In the meantime, we do what we do best, the work.

I hope print never dies. I sell too many books.

Dawn, I don’t care about your future plans to combat free and I can guarantee that I would not ask you any questions about any of your upcoming future plans. I just wanted to ask you to come on my podcast and explain how free is dangerous.

I guess I’ll just have to keep reading inkswig to find out how I’m destroying comics.

And Rick, I guess I just got confused. The way so many NCS members crap on the work of MY peers, I just thought that was what we were supposed to do to get in.

But now I know that the besmirching is only allowed to go ONE way. Got it. Thanks. I’ve never belonged to an official fraternal organization, so…

“I guess I’ll just have to keep reading inkswig to find out how I’m destroying comics.”

There you again with the hostile hyperbole that has no basis in fact. I’ve never ever accused any web cartoonist of “destroying comics” and never would.

Tell you what, Scott, when you’ve put tens of thousands of dollars and several years of your life working to find/create a way for ALL worthy cartoonists to make a living online, then come back to me and ask me for an interview.

BARTENDER: Ladies and Gentlemen, last call! Last call!

Dawn,

Why would ANYONE put tens of thousands of dollars and several years of their life working to find or create a way for ALL worthy cartoonists to make a living online.

Such opportunities already exist.

That’s right, Scott, just like like they do for all worthy cartoonists wanting to make a living from newspapers.

Let’s just leave it at that then. Have a good career.

To go back a bit –

I couldn’t even imagine it if Jim Davis was reading my material, AND said he liked it.

Congrats on that, Scott.

>>And Rick, I guess I just got confused. The way so many NCS members crap on the work of MY peers, I just thought that was what we were supposed to do to get in.But now I know that the besmirching is only allowed to go ONE way.

I really think you’d be hard pressed to find any NCS member or non-member for that matter on this or another board who called out Dave Kellett, Brad Guigar, Owen Dunne , Nicholas Gurewitch or any other web cartoonist such as yourself who is making a living off their web work. I recall no print cartoonists publicly calling any of the above names hacks, has beens, or used the word “sucks” as you have time and again towards specific print cartoonists. I seem to recall a thread where it was advocated that some of these guys die to open up space for the up and comers. Such statements have resonance .

People may debate your business model but they haven’t personally attacked your work.

Rick,

I remember things differently, but I guess that’s how it goes with these things. I’m not going to apologize for having an opinion about the work of many NCS members, when so many NCS members have no problem expressing their similar opinions in the direction of my peers.

How many times can I stomach someone claiming that, for example, Diesel Sweeties is contributing to the increase of mediocrity in newspapers, before it’s okay for me to say that Mullet’s ain’t exactly Shakespeare?

I speak my mind, I’m fine taking the lumps for it.

But to accuse me of doing anything that NCS members are not also guilty of, is ridiculous and insulting.

Having an opinion on the quality of the work of some members of any professional organization does not disqualify one from membership, providing the person meets the qualifications to be accepted. The difference is how one conducts him or herself, whether it’s in a professional manner or not. One can disagree without being disagreeable, or confrontational.

Well spoken, Wiley, but again, I think what you say applies to both sides. The difference is that I’m really open to meeting everyone in person and getting to know them TRULY. It’s just that when ever an opportunity comes up for me to do that, it’s shot down by someone in your organization.

I’m not sure what you envision I would do at a Reuben’s weekend that would shake the very pillars of your club. Are you convinced that any of us are, in person, the way we come off on message boards?

The question is do you guys feel you have anything to gain by letting me in, and do I feel like I have anything to gain by being granted admission.

I think just getting to spend even a weekend with the cartoonists that inspired me growing up is invaluable. I think I still have a lot I could learn from meeting NCS members.

It’s sad to hear I’ve closed that door for myself forever.

You mean that door was closed… IN YOUR FACE?

Lee wins.

Lock the thread.

Scott-
Cartooning is no different than any other profession. As such, one expects members who have reached the standards to be a part of that profession to conduct themselves in a professional manner. It’s nothing more than being civil and mature.

And I should point out that I have nothing to do with what the NCS does regarding membership or anything else.

Hey, Wiley.

Maybe one day, I can organize a meeting of the minds about cartooning where I can meet all you guys and you can meet me and we can all talk and have a pow-wow. (outside the NCS)

How awesome would THAT be?

In the age of the internet this blog provides exactly that - a place for like minds to meet and talk. If one (note I’m not naming names) can’t act professionally on this blog - what expectation should anyone have that a face to face meeting wouldn’t be any different?

Tim Russert died today. :(

Now there was a professional.

>How awesome would THAT be?

Part of my business plan provides for face-to-face get-togethers with cartoonists, including what I’m calling an annual “Brew Ha Ha” up here in Portland, home to lots of great micro-breweries and standup comics. An awards ceremony will accompany the two day celebration.

But that will take a few years to get to. It’s a multi-phase rollout.

I do think getting together face to face periodically with all different kinds of cartoonists — web, print, comic strips, editorial, comic books,…, even from different continents — would be a healthy and productive thing to do, and should be lots of fun, too.

When it comes to my own gatherings, I won’t close the door on any working cartoonist who wants to come, but would I be tempted to? Absolutely.

“And Rick, I guess I just got confused. The way so many NCS members crap on the work of MY peers, I just thought that was what we were supposed to do to get in.

But now I know that the besmirching is only allowed to go ONE way.”

I understand this is sarcasm, but just because they did it to you and your peers doesn’t make them right, but they have the advantage of already being members. My advice, for what it’s worth, is don’t stoop to their level.

I have been very fortunate to meet some big name cartoonists and I was surprised to hear how much negative comments affect them. One very popular cartoonist told me “you may get one negative comment for every 100 positive comments, but you always remember the negative ones.”

Personally, I think no cartoonist (print or web) or anyone related to the field such as syndicates should ever trash someone else’s strip. We all know that no strip is everything to everybody, no matter how popular it is. Whether or not you like a particular strip, someone is devoting a substancial part of their life to it. Leave the trashing to the public.

“…where I can meet all you guys and you can meet me and we can all talk and have a pow-wow. (outside the NCS)”

That’s already there for you, Scott. I don’t know where you live, but I’d be willing to bet that there’s an NCS chapter in your region that has regular meetings. You don’t need to be a member of the NCS to be a member in a local chapter. That would be a good place to start toward becoming a member. Go to Reuben.org to check out the various chapters.

By the way, congratulations to Jim Davis. He has built an incredible empire.

“…”but just because they did it to you and your peers doesn’t make them right, but they have the advantage of already being members. My advice, for what it’s worth, is don’t stoop to their level.”

Wait a minute… what do you mean, “stoop to their level”? Who are “they”? The rather hyperbolic accusations leveled here have been quite vague and completely unsubstantiated. And even if there was a shred of accuracy to them, those criticism would be coming from an individual who may or may not be a member of the NCS. Simply because one is a professional cartoonist does not mean they’re a member of the NCS. And any opinion they may put forth is entirely their own, not that of the NCS. Their opinion shouldn’t reflect on the organization any more than it would if they’re a member of the Rotary Club.

If anyone has a beef with something another person said, then simply consider the source and respond to that source. Don’t paint everyone else in the profession with the same broad brush.

Wiley,

I only meant don’t stoop to the level of someone who is trashing your strip. That is not at all meant as a slam on the NCS as I have never personally seen any NCS members slam any strips.

Sorry I wasn’t more clear.

Is it OK with everyone here if I draw a cartoon with two sides throwing things at each other? One side would be hurtling ink bottles, pens and brushes, books, etc.; the other would be tossing (pixels?) and verbal assaults.

I have the unusual experience of having once held a job making license plates. Yes, I get questioning looks, and No, it was not in the Joint.
When I tell people now that I am a cartoonist, it seems that I get similar quizzical stares.

I had written:
I, for one, would really like to know once and for all if it’s all marketing with you, if you’re just here periodically for the attention it awards you, (online marketing is ALL about gaining attention, often via controversy, which seems to be your forte), or if you really would like to become more friendly with and more knowledgeable about the parts of the industry that are outside web cartooning.

Well, I have my answer. Scott said himself he doesn’t care what it is I’m actually doing, but he was happy to pretend that he does, to once again exploit his “we’re the superior ones who get it and everybody else is an idiot” marketing strategy.

So he spread lies via Twitter and who knows where else about how I’m out to destroy what he and other web cartoonists are doing because they’re destroying comics.

So he get accolades as some sort of enlightened web-cartoonist-hero-leader, and I get harassing emails and blog comments.

Scott, I’ll tell you what I’ve been telling the others: Happy Father’s Day. I’m sure your children are very proud to have you to look up to.

Let me officially, apologize for the comment that started this entire thread of comments and hijacked and otherwise wonderful article about Jim Davis.

The initial comment was meant in jest but was still very ill-advised.

Subsequently, allowing myself to engage in any kind of back and forth over topics that have already THOROUGHLY been exhausted was, for lack of a more politically correct term, freaking retarded.

To see that it’s devolved into Dawn Douglas ranting incoherently about something she’s interpreting I said in either my twitter feed or elsewhere is disheartening.

Dawn, I unfortunately HAVE no children. But despite what you may think, I gain NOTHING from a marketing standpoint by stirring up this pot. If anything, it’s damaging to my marketability.

I have read your site and I am quite well informed on the topics you discuss. If you would like to have an open discussion with me about anything I’m happy to do so with an open mind.

Again, I sincerely and with great humility apologize for starting this.

I’ve been following this discussion with some confusion. I’m not a cartoonist. Can someone explain what was the original point of contention? Is it the difference between web based and print based cartoonists?
Aren’t all of you more or less on the same team? What difference does it make if someone is web based or print based if they can make a living doing what they love and entertain bunches of people?
This is not a criticism, but an honest question about why such acrimony. (I’m in medicine, and Lord knows we have all sorts of less than intelligent arguments about things some fairly esoteric issues.) From what I can deduce, print comics aren’t going away anytime soon. But why not take advantage of any medium possible to get your product out? If it is on the web, so be it. If only print, great. But remember that for every reader of a particular comic in a newspaper, there are millions who may have never heard of your work, but would enjoy it. (I can think of dozens of strips I read only on the internet (via subscription) that I would have never seen otherwise.)
So to get back to my original question, what is the bone of contention?

Excellent observations, Dave.

The truth is, you’re absolutely right … No matter the medium we may work in, we’re all cartoonists. Pardon my pun, but for better or for worse, lines have been drawn in the sandbox at various times.

The way I see it, shovels are better for building sand castles, rather than digging graves.

I’m not a cartoonist. Nor do I have any dogs in this fight, print or web. My desire remains, as it has been for the past 5 1/2 years, to create new opportunities for those who want them.

To carry your shoveling metaphor further, if I might, Mike, and add to my “incoherent ranting”:
Those who throw dirt lose ground — esp. when they’re trying to build themselves a mound on top of others.

My comments are seldom driven by the ludicrous mind-numbing web vs. print thing (I have both web and syndicated comic strips). My beef is with the trend of huge egos that seem to be amassing in a medium that seems to have little, if any, accountability for one’s actions.

Why do so many Interweb cartoonists feel the need to stand up and self-congratulate themselves on a job well done with every stroke of the pen? Why do we need to discuss at length and with great sincerity, the state of a field that’s just silly to be able to make a living at.

Shouldn’t great art speak for itself? Shouldn’t great movers and shakers rise to the top and make a difference on the kudos of others in their field? It’s one thing to confidently self-promote in a gracious manner, it’s quite another to keep shoving accomplishments down the throat of the readers.

Who the Hell really cares if you’re doing your work on the Interweb or in print? Do you like to draw? Do you like to make people laugh? Are ya havin’ fun and makin’ a couple bucks?

Good. Awesome and bully for you.

Just stop telling me about it, every minute of every day. The worse thing to ever happen to online comics was the addition of a blog underneath the comic. Is nothing sacred anymore? Why do I need to tell you what I ate while I drew this comic? Or how wonderfully drawn the horse in the third frame is? Aren’t I a great artist? Would you like to hear me talk more about my greatness, how I’m going to change things and what the doctor said about the corn on my toe last Wednesday? Come, join and listen to my new podcast: “What I’m doing, all of the time.”

Maybe that’s why some folks are a little apprehensive about the “new media” through the Interweb. Maybe it was nice to read the comic in the paper, chuckle and then move on with your day… Not read the blog, listen to the podcast and add reader’s comments… Thus wasting an afternoon on useless information that’s going to shove out some of the good info in my head. I need my brain cells. They’re reserved for beer.

THAT’S my problem with this whole deal. And I just wasted 10 minutes talking about the fact that I’m sick of talking about the fact.

Yay me.

To Dave Krainacker, “Print vs Web” is to comics as “Herbal vs FDA Approved” is to medicine.

People have faith in herbal, it makes em feel better, but in the end, if you have a heart condition there ain’t no subsitute for FDA approved blood thinners.

FOOD FIGHT!!!!!! :-)

Dave, The print versus web thing should probably be more accurately described as independent vs syndicated in some cases. To put it in medical terms it is the difference between a pediatrician who has a private practice and handles all his own insurance, billing and overhead and the same pediatrician who is part of a big medical center that takes care of all those things.

Most of the web cartoonists have a storefront available to them, as it were, that did not used to exist. If you wanted your work seen be a huge number of people, syndication was your only hope. The internet has changed all that.

The other matter here that compicates the issue is the way revenue is generated from the cartoons. Many web cartoonists use a business model of not charging people to view their work and instead making money from advertising and merchandise. Most print cartoonists are paid directly for their work instead - although, if their strip has a big enough following they also make $ from merchandising.

In the music and art worlds this is absolutely nothing new. I am a professional musician who gets paid a set fee for every gig I play. I have a friend who is a recording artist who plays a ton of gigs for free but she makes money selling her cds on the site of the gig. People who hire me for their event usually don’t want me hawking my stuff on what they consider to be their time so that model would not work for me, but she and I play totally different venues so it works for her.

The contentious point between many cartoonists is the difference between these two business models and whether one is hurting the other. If I were unable to get any gigs because everyone was hiring my friend for free instead, I probably would not be so relaxed about my friend’s business model and we probably would not manage to remain friends.

I think the frustration can be summed up pretty easily. Whenever cartoonists seem to bring up the web, one of them usually says “Boy, I wish there was a way to make money with cartoons on the Internet.” Then, a voice in the background says, “I do! Let me tell you how…” and then the first cartoonist repeats, “Boy, I wish there was a way to make money with cartoons on the Internet.” And that’s when the frustration starts.

Corey - I agree - but this notion is not limited to web cartoonists. Everyone and their grandmother has a page on some social network site and they all feel like they should tell us what they had for breakfast in their blog. It is what it is.

Corey: That whole rant sorta seemed like the pot calling the kettle green. No offense. If ya don’t like what other cartoonists are relaying to their readers, the choice is simple. Just don’t read it.

I agree, the print vs. web argument is a waste of time but that whole edgy “screw you” attitude just cries “look at me.”

Corey: While I agree that the argument of “Print Vs.Web” is a waste of time, I find your rant a little hypocritical. Just a tad. It all comes down to this: If you don’t like how an artist relates to his/her readers, the choice is simple. Don’t read it.

That’s the beauty of the “interweb.” If you don’t like what you see on one page, you can close the browser and turn on Sanford and Son.

“Whenever cartoonists seem to bring up the web, one of them usually says “Boy, I wish there was a way to make money with cartoons on the Internet.” Then, a voice in the background says, “I do! Let me tell you how…” and then the first cartoonist repeats, “Boy, I wish there was a way to make money with cartoons on the Internet.” And that’s when the frustration starts.”

No, Jason. The frustration begins and ends with web cartoonists not listening, then paraphrasing the question incorrectly.

The question is not “how to make money”. The question is, “how to make a living”. There’s a huge difference.

The point is, there is no such thing as “web vs. print” cartoons as they are two entirely different mediums, just as comic strips are a different market from comic books or magazine gag cartoons. The rancor is always one sided, where the young web cartoonists come barging in full of false bravado, proclaiming their inherent superiority to syndicated comic strips, proclaiming print is dead. As Corey pointed out, it has long since become tiresome. Cartoons done on the internet have nothing to do, nor have any affect, on syndicated comics. If they did, professional cartoonists would already be doing their work on the web. And once there’s a market here that can replace our living in print, we will be here in full force. After all, as I’ve tried to explain here many times, as a professional, one is always looking for a bigger and better market, especially as the old market is drying up. Print are cartoonists are not, or have been, dismissive of the internet. What the internet lacks is a clear marketplace for professional work similar to what we’ve had in newspapers and magazines, where the medium pays for our work.

I want to make money off the web too, but I’ve chosen to sell vector art on microstock websites. People have sold thousands of images this way, (depending on how good you are at illustrator)
That is a clear cut example of selling art on the web. You buy what you see on your screen. All this other nonsense about showing your comic for free, bulding a web audience, and hoping people buy your books and merch, just seems far fetched.

It’s hope based income.

I wrote a childrens book, I’m not going to post the whole thing on the web and hope people read it and buy the book. I would never offer it for free to childrens book publishers to gain exposer. I just don’t see how any of that gets me a steady paycheck.

“The question is not “how to make money”. The question is, “how to make a living”. There’s a huge difference.”

And whenever those of us on the web EXPLAIN how we’re making a LIVING, people tend to ignore, dismiss or discount us. Even if we offer to provide tax returns.

Some people just don’t want to accept that, yes, we’re making as legitimate and stable a living as the rest of the cartooning world.

Leading some on the web side to speculate that our traditional-model brothers are just scared of what’s ahead of them if things keep changing the way they are.

Everyone likes to paint me as someone pushing MY way on others, or as some advocate that the WEB is better than PRINT or SYNDICATION. I have friends successful on both sides, including many buddies doing work-for-hire for Marvel and DC.

It’s funny how only the freelance cartoonists in traditional media refuse to accept that we’re making a legitimate living on the web. Those colleagues in print comic BOOKS not only believe us, but are actually envious of what we got going and are excited and interested about the opportunities out there.

Phil,

I would not advise you to give away your children’s book for free online either. But I would certainly advise you to create something associated with it on a semi-regular to regular basis that introduces an online audience to your work.

You could sell a lot of books, directly to people wanting to read it that way.

Again, there are SO many misconceptions about what we’re doing online that it’s completely frustrating. We don’t give away our work for free or devalue it. It’s a ridiculous notion.

But nobody here wants to try to understand what we’re doing with an open mind. Everyone just wants to deny and refuse to accept that there is any validity to what we’re doing. You guys are the FDA and we’re the hippy homopathic types. Whatever makes you feel better about things.

At least Jim Davis gets it.

“we don’t give away our work for free”

Well Scott - as I see I it you may not give ALL your work away for free but as long as someone can read the work for free without paying a subscription fee or send a copy of a strip via ecard for no fee, then that is at least giving SOMEof your work away for free.

I’m not saying your business model doesn’t work, I’m saying it’s not for everyone and, as Wiley pointed out, as soon as there is a business model that works on the web and is more similar to the print model most syndicated artists prefer, that is the route they will take.

Anne, don’t forget that ALL of the syndicates give away comic strips for free … every single day.

“And whenever those of us on the web EXPLAIN how we’re making a LIVING, people tend to ignore, dismiss or discount us. Even if we offer to provide tax returns.”

Once again, you’re not listening.